tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post1635542611040296646..comments2024-02-17T14:50:54.001-05:00Comments on Notes of an Anesthesioboist: Hovern Engan II: Still Mad at Peter GabrielT.http://www.blogger.com/profile/09208990104460795917noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post-59810577894797490002008-03-25T21:31:00.000-04:002008-03-25T21:31:00.000-04:00That's what I thought. Thank you for the info...E...That's what I thought. Thank you for the info...<BR/><BR/>Even if Peter Gabriel had permission to do this, it seems to me quite wrong that he fail to acknowledge the source AND that he present the work as his own.T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09208990104460795917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post-12887473760114692952008-03-25T15:13:00.000-04:002008-03-25T15:13:00.000-04:00HelloI found your post occasionaly searching for A...Hello<BR/>I found your post occasionaly searching for Armenian music on the net. Vache Hovsepian passed away in 1979 so he didn't record anything for Peter Gabriel. His version of "Hovern Enkan" was taken "as is" and used in "Passion". On 1:59 we can hear some Indian violin recorded.LLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04675231885712691521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post-7400665335547991172008-03-06T16:23:00.000-05:002008-03-06T16:23:00.000-05:00Bardiac! Great to hear from you!The answers to you...Bardiac! Great to hear from you!<BR/><BR/>The answers to your not-unexpectedly astute questions are<BR/><BR/>yes,<BR/>yes, and<BR/>yes.<BR/><BR/>I don't know if you saw my conversation with Elaine Fine on the previous post, but I think I AM more irritated by the "allusion" because I did not recognize the piece "alluded to" - an idea I was getting around to expressing with my Hava Nagila example on that comment board. At the risk of restating this, I think the classical composers that "allude" do so more transparently, and with material more recognizable to their expected audience, which may lie at the heart of why such "allusions" are so acceptable. They are ultimately recognizable as such. <BR/><BR/>Moreover, these classical composers will ARRANGE THE BORROWED PIECE THEMSELVES, so they're doing some musical work if not outright COMPOSING those sections.<BR/><BR/>What Peter Gabriel SEEMS to have done - and I won't have a clear understanding of this unless I can get a copy of the Ocora recording (and isn't that part of the problem - no one on the outside can get a clear understanding of just what he did?) - is taken a folk song from another culture, in a PUBLISHED/previously recorded arrangement by another musician, added some drums and synthesizers, called it "his" composition, made loads of money off it, and gotten away with it.<BR/><BR/>All in the name of educating the rest of us about "world music" and advocating for its musicians.<BR/><BR/>To me this smacks of something far more nefarious than "allusion."T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09208990104460795917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post-80476714794561419562008-03-06T06:34:00.000-05:002008-03-06T06:34:00.000-05:00What an interesting discussion. It used to be jus...What an interesting discussion. It used to be just fine to echo other people's verse in yours; that Shakespeare guy did it shamelessly (he used other people's plots left and right). There's a lot of pleasure in poetry tied into allusiveness and responses to other poems. (Without that, TS Eliot would be lots less fun!)<BR/><BR/>Does it seem worse when Gabriel does it now because (we assume?) he's making a boatload of money of his work AND someone else (the person who's performance he sampled?) isn't in all likelihood. (Did he sample someone else's work, or have a new performance recording done?)<BR/><BR/>Or is there a level of cultural appropriation that seems problematic? (Like he's appropriating in a sort of colonializing way for his capitalistic purpose?)<BR/><BR/>Or is the irritation at the feeling of being "fooled" into thinking Gabriel wrote something? If you'd have recognized the allusion right off, would you be irritated in the same way?Bardiachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11846065504793800266noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post-17813345582645935312008-03-05T10:59:00.000-05:002008-03-05T10:59:00.000-05:00I can see what you are saying, T. Just not sure I'...I can see what you are saying, T. Just not sure I'm gonna agree or not. But maybe I haven't spent enough time pondering.<BR/><BR/>I wasn't thinking of RVW so much as Ives. And Harris. They took folk tunes much more (in Harris' case using the lyrics as well). I'm sure the program notes would comment on that, but the composers didn't. They just took them and used them. <BR/><BR/>But I'm not even a Gabriel fan, so why the heck would I defend the guy!? ;-)<BR/><BR/>Anyhoo, thank you for your extremely kind words about my "poetry piffle" as I call it. Oh how I wish I could be a "real" poet, but mostly I can't quite let myself go and do it. I did kind of like my sorrow poem, though. It just hit me. I used to study poetry with three other women; I called it our poetry square, and they were my poetry pals. They were MUCH better. It was quite humbling. I figure humbling is good for me, though. I fear arrogance, and I know it runs in my blood. Along with all this stupid iron I have to continue to take! Heh.<BR/><BR/>Anyway ... ramble ramble ... pop singers. Go figure. They steal a lot. Heh. Think Barry Manilow. ;-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post-43141595025020542272008-03-05T10:08:00.000-05:002008-03-05T10:08:00.000-05:00Patty - I just thought of another way to express w...Patty - I just thought of another way to express why I see the classical allusions to folk music as different from what PG did with Hovern Enkan.<BR/><BR/>Suppose I wrote the following and put my name down as the author:<BR/><BR/>Roses are red<BR/>Violets are blue<BR/>But the snails in my garden<BR/>Just don't have a clue<BR/>The birds fly about<BR/>The butterflies too<BR/>Pollinating blithely<BR/>Oblivious to<BR/>Forsythias' yellow<BR/>And azaleas' pink<BR/>The falling white cherry blossoms<BR/>Inspiring me to think<BR/>They don't even know<BR/>To WISH that they knew<BR/>That roses are red<BR/>And violets are blue.<BR/><BR/>I dare say my appropriation of the "Roses are red" trope would probably be accepted / acceptable. For the record, I did write the above, just now, off the cuff, and I fully acknowledge that the verses depend largely on the previously written "Roses are red" theme.<BR/><BR/>But what if I did this (please forgive the analogy - I woke up with it this morning), again putting my name to it, with no other attribution:<BR/><BR/>Sorrow is like smoke<BR/>sneaking under doors<BR/>seeping into everything<BR/>through small cracks.<BR/><BR/>Fear's like the cold<BR/>surrounding, isolating,<BR/>rendering you raw<BR/>inside and out.<BR/><BR/>Love's illumination<BR/>shows smoke for what it is<BR/>warming our cold hands and hearts<BR/>till our isolation <BR/>and our raw hurt<BR/>are gone.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Wouldn't it be WRONG for me to claim I wrote this, and not mention any other source, when it basically uses the first part of your MUCH better poem almost word for word?<BR/><BR/>By the way, to see Patty's lovely poem on sorrow, please check it out at http://planetmitchell.com/pattyo/. <BR/>BTW, Patty, you've got some nice poems and great recipes there! I'm so glad I discovered your "other" blog!T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09208990104460795917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post-33853122576445655452008-03-04T22:08:00.000-05:002008-03-04T22:08:00.000-05:00Vaughan Williams at least had the integrity to CAL...Vaughan Williams at least had the integrity to CALL his works things like "Six Studies in English Folk Song" or "Fantasia on 'Greensleeves.' "<BR/><BR/>I think on the whole there's more transparency in what the "classical" composers have done. <BR/><BR/>And I gotta say, your so-called "argumentative" is about my "nice!" :)T.https://www.blogger.com/profile/09208990104460795917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5628616877664827988.post-49108798922277162102008-03-04T22:00:00.000-05:002008-03-04T22:00:00.000-05:00I'm going back & forth on this one. Some "classica...I'm going back & forth on this one. Some "classical" composers took folk tunes and used them and still they get credit for the work. So I just don't know ... ?<BR/><BR/>Or maybe I am just being argumentative. <BR/><BR/>Me? A simply oboe girl? Hmm.Pattyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16172401944836258683noreply@blogger.com